tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post115646685599278599..comments2023-10-09T22:44:56.500-07:00Comments on WHAT enlightenment??!: Some Reflections on Abuse and Uncompleted or “Intermediate” GurusUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1167101546174835072006-12-25T18:52:00.000-08:002006-12-25T18:52:00.000-08:00Vjonbaker sez: "There is a really interesting new ...Vjonbaker sez: "There is a really interesting new publication out by Georg Fuerstein called Holy Madness (an almost entirely new update of his original) that I am nearly finished with. In it he covers a lot of contemporary "crazy-wise" teachers, Andrew not included. I would highly recommend it to put a very parodoxical spin on what all of you are discussing...Everything is not always as it seems and it may be wise to allow room for paradox and not always jumping to conclusions." <BR/><BR/>I am familiar with the intermediate zone theory for incomplete charismatic gurus, which simply restates the ancient traditions about the pitfalls of premature assumptions of enlightnment just because powers and the desire to teach arises. It was first published by Aurobindo and expanded upon by Paul Brunton, someone who who Fuerstein once admired but failed to understand in this case. Brunton also explains in terms of subtle mechanics how the false guru can produce the effects they do through symbology and projection, something Fuerstein also ignores. The intermediate zone theory makes far more sense than Fuerstein's apologetic revision of his crazy wisdom theory justifying abusive gurus. Instead of recogonizing his own tendencies and obsession with tantra as being the highest path led him to an abusive Adi Da and need reconsideration, to salvage his ego, Fuerstein attempts to show how even if his ex-guru had issues, the teaching and path was correct. Sorry, but there is no paradox justifying Cohen or the others. There is only the paradox of the confused follower projecting unrealistic expectations on an incomplete teacher, and a conflicted intermediate zone teacher, who says many of the right things but is too egoic to carry them out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1159483006684570802006-09-28T15:36:00.000-07:002006-09-28T15:36:00.000-07:00Does anyone know why the Critical Mass conference ...Does anyone know why the Critical Mass conference was postponed?<BR/>There is no explanation on the web site or on WIE.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.criticalmass2006.org/" REL="nofollow">http://www.criticalmass2006.org/</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1159476379190237152006-09-28T13:46:00.000-07:002006-09-28T13:46:00.000-07:00I've been keeping in touch with this blog for abou...I've been keeping in touch with this blog for about a year and I am glad it is here. I too have experience with a "spiritual teacher" that left me reeling. I am currently on that continuum of understanding what happened and what I've learned from it. Some days are hard but mostly I feel much better, now that there has been some distance from it.<BR/> <BR/>I've come to understand that spiritual teachers can indeed be highly evolved in some areas; they can be very intuitive and "say the right things," etc. But they can also simultaneously be greatly underevolved in others. Both are true. When the underevolved areas began to "weigh" more than the evolved ones, it was time for me to move on. That took a while and some crappy stuff happened, but I've moved on. One thing I learned is that I can absolutely RELY on my gut instinct. Not my ego, but my heart and my gut. There was something within me all along that just felt "off." Now I see clearly.<BR/><BR/>I have also come to believe that there is a vast, yet subtle difference between someone who truly has wisdom and someone who is just charismatic. <BR/><BR/>I believe that if a teacher proves to be greaty underevolved in certain areas, they should not teach. Period. They, like the rest of us, need to be willing to look within and see where there's room to grow. They must always be willing to be students. <BR/><BR/>I pray that those who were harmed by Andrew find peace and joy. I pray that Mr. Cohen does too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1158634645071159882006-09-18T19:57:00.000-07:002006-09-18T19:57:00.000-07:00To CharlieI would love to read your book - I was a...To Charlie<BR/><BR/>I would love to read your book - I was also in a small group a number of years ago and am still in the process of realizing what was good/bad/my projection/their exploitation etc.<BR/>If the book is online, please post a link or can it be bought from Amazon etc.?<BR/><BR/>Many thanks<BR/><BR/>DavidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1158534593439515642006-09-17T16:09:00.000-07:002006-09-17T16:09:00.000-07:00First let me just thank you for making this forum ...First let me just thank you for making this forum available.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, my experience is extremely minor compared to the abuse many have obviously endured but I still feel a sense of violation.<BR/><BR/>I attended an EnlightenNext presentation yesterday in Chicago and all seemed fine, until I left. I'm new to this spiritual path business but on my 3 hour drive home to Indianapolis, and as I listened to various Buddhist podcasts on the way home, doubts about the seminar started to creep in. The bizarre graphic representations of the ego and authentic self, no credentials or lineage of he or the presenters, and the freaky, pod people, group consciousness thing all started to not add up.<BR/><BR/>I thought I was just 'living out of my ego', being closed minded or the like until I found your site. My gut reaction is now confirmed, thanks.<BR/><BR/>With his ultra slick publication, and tie in with Ken Wilber (Mr. Big Head is perhaps a better moniker then Mr. Big Brain) the seminar SEEMED legitimate beforehand.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately now I feel like a rube at the county fair. But luckily allthey got was $35 & five hours of my time.<BR/><BR/>Thank you again. I was actually considering going to Denver for 5 days to hear Ken Wilber blather on. Man, am I relieved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1158429794573547432006-09-16T11:03:00.000-07:002006-09-16T11:03:00.000-07:00Hey, I just wanted to say that I think it's great ...Hey, I just wanted to say that I think it's great that you all put up this blog. I'm not sure how old it is or outdated but I was in a group somewhat similar to this, a very small group. I know it can take years and years to bounce back and thank god for the others on the 'outside' who you can talk to about it. It really is crazy to look back 'in' and see the people we knew so well still there-them thinking we have lost something because we left. My little community has completely broken up now, about 10 years ago. The teacher finally realized what was happening and essentially chose to quit teaching. I even just wrote a book about life after the community, what good stuff I took away from it, what I left behind-graciously. Good luck to you all, be right where you are supposed to be and everything will work out fine...already there you say? Great!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1157488101331597442006-09-05T13:28:00.000-07:002006-09-05T13:28:00.000-07:00Heather said... > In the name of freedom, folks > ...Heather said... <BR/>> In the name of freedom, folks <BR/>> are surrendering their lives to <BR/>> Andrew and for me the issue is <BR/>> that after all these years of <BR/>> surrender and passionate <BR/>> commitment there are no success <BR/>> stories, rather we have folks <BR/>> coming forward to share their <BR/>> experiences of abuse, pain and <BR/>> suffering in the community.<BR/><BR/>This is evidence that handing your life to someone who claims guruhood might not be such a great idea. Pretty strong, straight-forward evidence.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, I can't say there are no success stories. I'd imagine there are plenty people out there who'd claim that surrendering to Andrew has been a good thing. <BR/><BR/>But buyer beware! With blogs like this sharing the information (of those people who regret their surrender), people thinking of following that path ought to examine their motives carefully.<BR/><BR/>an ex-Andrew student said... <BR/>> I feel the "sweetness and <BR/>> goodness" referred to in this <BR/>> essay's intro cannot be reduced <BR/>> to being "nice" sometimes and <BR/>> not at other times (as in your <BR/>> kindergarden example) or to <BR/>> giving students amazing <BR/>> experiences. It's more subtle <BR/>> and complex than that because of <BR/>> the unique dynamics at play in <BR/>> this relationship.<BR/><BR/>Metaphorically: a teen-ager falls in love, and wants to quit school and marry his sweet-heart. His parents tell him to not be so rash, that everyone has gone through such infatuation. The teen-ager says, "No, no! Our love is UNIQUE! No one in the world has ever been in love like us!"<BR/><BR/>Of course the kid feels like no one has every felt the way he does, and as long as he insists that his situation is unique, he can't learn anything from anyone else. But in fact, we're all human beings, so we go through similar experiences of love, attachment, betrayal. No matter how wonderful and horrible these experiences seems at the time, they're not unique.<BR/><BR/>A kid loves his parents, thinks they're supermen. But they're still human, so sometimes they act cruel. A wife loves a husband, thinks he's perfect. But he's human, so sometimes he gets drunk and violent.<BR/><BR/>Falling in love with a guru isn't an entire unique dynamic. It's on a continuum with the attachment of a kid for his parents, or spouses for each other, etc etc. Recognizing that, it's possible to take life lessons from relationships in general, and actually learn something that applies to other relationships.<BR/><BR/>But if someone insists that his attachment for a guru is unique, having nothing to do with other relationships, then of course he'll never learn anything helpful from life experience.<BR/><BR/>Stuart<BR/>http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htmstuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1157468307905657322006-09-05T07:58:00.000-07:002006-09-05T07:58:00.000-07:00I'm sorry but it has to be said, Stuart -- you're ...I'm sorry but it has to be said, Stuart -- you're amazement, and perhaps frustration at former students' confusion and difficulty getting clear about both sides of Andrew Cohen (and other such gurus in general) suggests that maybe you've never experienced the real care and love of a spiritual teacher. I feel the "sweetness and goodness" referred to in this essay's intro cannot be reduced to being "nice" sometimes and not at other times (as in your kindergarden example) or to giving students amazing experiences. It's more subtle and complex than that because of the unique dynamics at play in this relationship. And when the DENIED "dark" side of this all-to-human guru becomes mixed with and part of the dynamic, the abuse is much more twisted, much more mind and soul-fucking than your examples would indicate. It's more like abuse from a loved and trusted parent, but about a thousand times more intense because it's messing with a person's deeper spiritual urge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1157311018348228622006-09-03T12:16:00.000-07:002006-09-03T12:16:00.000-07:00anonymous said:> That sweetness and goodness can >...anonymous said:<BR/>> That sweetness and goodness can <BR/>> at the same time be entangled <BR/>> with ghastly abuse….<BR/><BR/>Isn't this a pretty basic lesson that most of use learn in kindergarten? A person can be nice sometimes, and mean at other times. It's really not that new or surprising.<BR/><BR/>It's actually even simpler than that. I mean, if Andrew were sweet and good sometimes, and abusive other times, we could chalk it up to the fact that everyone is moody, everyone has their good and bad days.<BR/><BR/>But I don't think that anyone claims that Andrew is particularly sweet and good most of the time. I think what people are claiming is that Andrew sometimes speaks words that they find interesting or stimulating, or says or does things that facilitate big amazing experiences for them.<BR/><BR/>So it's more like... you go to an art museum and see a Picasso painting, and it transports you into a wonderful state. Or you go to a Springsteen concert and go into absolute bliss. Does this mean that Picasso and Springsteen are necessarily nice people all the time. OF COURSE NOT. They're people with a particular talent that others may connect with. That's all.<BR/><BR/>> This comment made me wonder <BR/>> again, what gives rise to this <BR/>> complex, difficult and <BR/>> destructive phenomenon – the <BR/>> partial guru? How so much light <BR/>> and also so much darkness?<BR/><BR/>What makes it complex or difficult? I mean any more complex or difficult than dealing with ANY human being, as we all have our light days and our dark days? The fact that Andrew claims "guruhood," whatever he may mean by that... why would anyone think that that makes him immune to being an ordinary person, who can be nice in some ways, talented in some ways, but a bastard at times?stuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1157256428965369772006-09-02T21:07:00.000-07:002006-09-02T21:07:00.000-07:00I might be able to offer some interesting perspect...I might be able to offer some interesting perspectives........There is a really interesting new publication out by Georg Fuerstein called Holy Madness (an almost entirely new update of his original) that I am nearly finished with. In it he covers a lot of contemporary "crazy-wise" teachers, Andrew not included. I would highly recommend it to put a very parodoxical spin on what all of you are discussing. <BR/><BR/>Personally I have been up to Foxhollow recently, have close friends involved with Andrew, have a foster father whose friend John Austin had issues with Andrew, have been to Andrew's retreats, have other friends that love him, have other friends that hate him.......<BR/><BR/>I am also close to the Waking Down in Mutuality community whose founder Saniel Bonder left Adi Da and had his own awakening. He speaks to a lot of these issues you are discussing. Through this accociation I fell into my own awakened condition.<BR/><BR/>There are alot of interesting dynamics at work here. Everything is not always as it seems and it may be wise to allow room for paradox and not always jumping to conclusions. <BR/><BR/>May you all find yourself with the Secret Intention.vjohnbakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09578984910804814190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1157248846075619162006-09-02T19:00:00.000-07:002006-09-02T19:00:00.000-07:00> Yet if Andrew's capacity to give > such "experie...> Yet if Andrew's capacity to give <BR/>> such "experiences" came not from <BR/>> full enlightenment...<BR/><BR/>I think it'd be useful to maintain a bit of doubt re the idea that Andrew "gave" the experience. This is a very very common bit of fuzzy thinking. Someone gets an experience, it's direct, it's undeniable. Then, everyone around them says that the experience was "given" by Andrew. (God forbid that one might consider that it was an experience of one's own true self, not dependent on something or someone external.)<BR/><BR/>The point is that there's the experience, and then there's the IDEA about where it came from. People are always muddling these two distinct things. Andrew as the "giver" isn't the experience, it's an idea superimposed on the exprience.<BR/><BR/>> staying loyal to those memories <BR/>> is the price of <BR/>> remaining “spiritual”.<BR/><BR/>And maybe that's the crux of the matter. If someone is attached to thinking of himself as special ("spiritual"), then it's like any other attachment: it's this wanting that makes vunerable to being duped, trapped, loss of freedom.<BR/><BR/>> If the suffering person wants to <BR/>> stay loyal to the spiritual <BR/>> dimension, he or she risks being <BR/>> accused of lingering gullibility <BR/><BR/>This is really worth looking at with care, not passed over lightly. People create this duality: a ordinary dimension and a "spiritual" dimension. Why do that? Why not stay loyal to one's own decision to investigate truth, to investigate What am I? To investigating how best to live and help others? Why instead be loyal to mere ideas (of "spirituality")?<BR/><BR/>Memories of this or that special experience are just that. There's no need to deny memories, but why cling to them? And why go even further by clinging to IDEAS ABOUT the experience, rather than just seeing it just as it is?<BR/><BR/>Making all this speculation about where an experience comes from, about what "enlightened" is, about whether Andrew has 100% of this fuzzy undefined "enlightenment" or only 50%... it's all unnecessary if one justs takes as the foundation his own experience, moment-to-moment, rather than to ideas about the experience, ideas about Andrew, ideas about "spiritual."<BR/><BR/>Stuart<BR/>http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htmstuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1156810774658887252006-08-28T17:19:00.000-07:002006-08-28T17:19:00.000-07:00That sweetness and goodness can at the same time b...That sweetness and goodness can at the same time be entangled with ghastly abuse….<BR/><BR/>This comment made me wonder again, what gives rise to this complex, difficult and destructive phenomenon – the partial guru? How so much light and also so much darkness?<BR/><BR/>I was reading about the war in Iraq on Juancole.com and came across a quote I’d like to share, because it so reminds me of Andrew Cohen. (see the 8/22/06 on juancole.com) Though this was written about Bush, it reveals a lot in our current discussion here on WHAT enlightenment?!!<BR/><BR/>“Bush’s Arab Dream Palace<BR/>Is it Narcissistic?<BR/><BR/>Juan Cole makes a point of how Bush’s performance has all the marks of someone with the Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and here he quotes the text:<BR/><BR/>1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).<BR/><BR/>2. Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love. <BR/><BR/>3. Believes he is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) <BR/><BR/>4. Requires excessive admiration. <BR/><BR/>5. Has a sense of entitlement.<BR/><BR/>6. Selfishly takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends. <BR/><BR/>7. Lacks empathy.<BR/><BR/>8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him <BR/><BR/>9. Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes.”<BR/><BR/><BR/>Having lived at Foxhollow a few years, I can recall at least one episode of Cohen’s behavior to illustrate each of the points above. Yuck.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1156785138577825152006-08-28T10:12:00.000-07:002006-08-28T10:12:00.000-07:00Alan Kazlev says:" I tend to see the current pop g...Alan Kazlev says:<BR/>" I tend to see the current pop guru phenomenon as very much like the battered wife attitude; with their followers so used to be abused, and they know nothing else, that they think it is "their fault" and all this is done for "their benefit". And the more abusive the guru is, the more the disciple rationalises the abuse!"<BR/><BR/>I was in Andrew's community about six years ago and I would agree with this. I think it''s a pretty accurate description of why I and so many others rationalized and covered up for the many cruel and bizarre "messages" we got from him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1156695244747691532006-08-27T09:14:00.000-07:002006-08-27T09:14:00.000-07:00Thanks for sharing the Intermediate zone guru phen...Thanks for sharing the Intermediate zone guru phenomenon. Also so good to hear that Cohen's slapping people around is being curbed. Good for everybody including Andrew.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com