tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post111341371711361579..comments2023-10-09T22:44:56.500-07:00Comments on WHAT enlightenment??!: Real Teachers Are As Scarce As Hens' TeethUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1131501772373878252005-11-08T18:02:00.000-08:002005-11-08T18:02:00.000-08:00Hi there,I'm new to this blog but wanted to make a...Hi there,<BR/><BR/>I'm new to this blog but wanted to make a few observations. The first one is that I find it interesting that those individuals who feel that they've been abused by Andrew Cohen feel amazingly free to heap their own abuse on those individuals who offer a different viewpoint, in particular Roberta and Jeff. Talk about groupthink!<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that all of you indeed signed up for the kind of relationship Andrew was offering and, rather than being open to different views of others also involved with Andrew, are simply out to destroy him because you feel that you've been hurt.<BR/><BR/>I have been to retreats with Andrew and I know a number of his senior students. The latter have amazed me, not because they are robots and zombies, but because their depth of humanity far surpasses that of most people I ever meet "in the world." If such human beings are the product of the kind of treatment that is described in this blog, well, then maybe there's something to the approach. <BR/><BR/>Elsewhere in this forum I have read of the things that Andrew says about people that leave. I can't speak directly to those allegations but I do remember a very poignant interaction with one of his senior students who informed us that we should have the utmost respect for the individuals that came before us because their dedication and sacrifice, even if they were no longer around, were making what was emerging between us now possible. <BR/><BR/>With respect to everything Andrew is said to get out of his being a teacher, I find that most questionable. I was once with him when he declared that he hated being a guru insofar as having to battle the ego was concerned and that he would prefer simply to teach retreats and be a pathfinder in consciousness. However, he can't do that because of a choiceless obligation to help those who want to go "all the way." <BR/><BR/>The truth is, the life he lives has cost him everything and gained him very little. In terms of material possessions, he could make a fortune and spare himself all headaches by simply giving people experiences of bliss and ecstasy and then tell them to "be as they are." Gangaji had done quite wel for herself with this approach. Ecstasy without pressure is a great formula for success. <BR/><BR/>In this vein, I have to wonder where all of the supposed wealth he's taken from his students has gone. He lives in an ordinary house and drives an ordinary car. Someone said, "he gets his magazine." Really? What exactly does he get out of it? I think I've gotten more out of it than he has and I'll bet there are at least a few thousand others out there who feel the same way. From what I understand, for EnlightenNext the magazine is a financial loser though being a winner on every other front.<BR/><BR/>The fact is, there are two sides to every story. If this is a blog only for former students of Andrew then perhaps it should be kept private. But since you have opened it up to the public it seems that those with differing views should at least be treated with the respect that you all claim to have deserved from Andrew. Otherwise, this forum could be said to be little more than a smear campaign whose sole purpose is vengeance rather than truth. No doubt I will have abuse heaped upon me for posting this, if it even gets posted. Or maybe not. Maybe the former students of Andrew Cohen would be willing to extend the humanity they feel they were deprived of to someone who takes issue, not with their facts, but with their conclusions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1114041198652707762005-04-20T16:53:00.000-07:002005-04-20T16:53:00.000-07:00Again we have the situation where rather than addr...Again we have the situation where rather than addressing the abuse issue, the poster above would rather criticize anonymity, analyze fellow contributors and walk away feeling self righteous. Flinging a final piece of advice as he heads out the door, Jeremy has certainly put us all in our place. No need for him to deal with this troubling subject any further.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1114032265216129492005-04-20T14:24:00.000-07:002005-04-20T14:24:00.000-07:00To Shocked Anonymous (the first responder to my pr...To Shocked Anonymous (the first responder to my prior post above),<BR/><BR/>In the context of this blog, I see little real compassion in a view – however well-intentioned - that attempts to give support by casting blame on another, thereby greatly reducing the possibility of a bruised and suffering individual taking full responsibility for his or her actions. Until such responsibility is taken, there is little likelihood of release and progress out of darkness.<BR/><BR/>True compassion is not always so obvious and may appear unsympathetic.<BR/><BR/>Just my opinion based on my personal experience, both with others (some of whom were indeed experts on the subject of abuse) and within myself.<BR/><BR/>To Freebird – I have no problem with someone politely expressing a different opinion. Your view on abuse reminds me of lengthy conversations I once had with true experts (you may be an expert, I am not). The essence of the discussion was the difference between the need of a sufferer for immediate sympathy - something we can all relate to – and the appropriate level of ongoing support. It seems experts often disagree on this subject. I am making an assumption, hopefully at least in some cases correctly, that those who were once students of Andrew still want to be free. I describe in the first paragraph of this post why I think this blog will be harmful in this respect – despite the best intentions of Hal and his partner, both of whom I know to be warm and sensitive people. <BR/><BR/>I think there is a largely unconsious underlying motive based on deep inner frustration and anger - it's so much easier to blame Andrew than to take responsibility and address issues within oneself. But now I am beginning to sound like a stuck record…..<BR/><BR/>To Hal – this is my last contribution to this blog : thank-you for the opportunity to have posted here. I think the vitriolic flaming of those challenging this blog’s core view is regrettable – combined with anonymity, it destroys the possibility of the open discussion which many profess to want.<BR/><BR/>I still wonder why former dharma warriors need to hide their identities. Could it be that the proudly self-styled “inner circle” are actually ashamed to put their names to so many vociferous & negative posts (a rhetorical question at this point, at least as far as I am concerned) ?<BR/><BR/>I’ll leave you with an old Sufi proverb, the profound simplicity of which has perhaps at least a passing relevance to this blog :<BR/><BR/>“Take what you want from life….. and pay for it.”.<BR/><BR/>Good luck everybody.<BR/><BR/>;o)<BR/><BR/>Jeremy Lyell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113909548717918702005-04-19T04:19:00.000-07:002005-04-19T04:19:00.000-07:00Freebird,I love most your posts but I sense there ...Freebird,<BR/><BR/>I love most your posts but I sense there is an untold story of your own lurking back there. Maybe it just easier to have your say and let things be what they will be. <BR/><BR/>Dont worry about the reception you might recieve it just has to be your truth in your words<BR/> <BR/><BR/>Craig TAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113901937465245112005-04-19T02:12:00.000-07:002005-04-19T02:12:00.000-07:00To previous posters:Gee, I had no idea how much I ...To previous posters:<BR/><BR/>Gee, I had no idea how much I was loved. Thank you posters for making my day, but seriously this blog has been great and very educational. I have gained much.<BR/><BR/>I had intentions of sharing my story of freedom, but decided against doing so for obvious reasons, lack of respect, love and support. Who knows you may have also learned from me as well.<BR/><BR/>I wish all of you my best and ,of course, Hal and former students for giving all the opportunity to share.<BR/><BR/>Peace and my prayers for you all.<BR/><BR/>To Santosh and my new anonymous spiritual friend, you both have brought light and love and I thank you.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>FreebirdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113899412155617292005-04-19T01:30:00.000-07:002005-04-19T01:30:00.000-07:00To the last Anonymous, Your might also add then th...To the last Anonymous, <BR/><BR/>Your might also add then that Freebird's attempts to shame Jeremy Lyell would be considered unethical and destructive in the counselling profession.<BR/><BR/>Also unhelpful and aggressive was Freebird's condescension to Roberta.<BR/><BR/>An earlier poster asked if Freebird was in the community. This Freebird has ignored.<BR/><BR/>ClareAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113897127420917762005-04-19T00:52:00.000-07:002005-04-19T00:52:00.000-07:00To the above poster. Such accusations are unneces...To the above poster. Such accusations are unnecessary and detract from this blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113885557748632012005-04-18T21:39:00.000-07:002005-04-18T21:39:00.000-07:00Freedbird - the exit counsellor,I sincerely invite...Freedbird - the exit counsellor,<BR/><BR/>I sincerely invite you to tell us who have for so long sought true freedom how you have found it.<BR/><BR/>Being a serious seeker I am somehow sceptical of your claims to be free, especially since you are likely to charge handsomely for your services by the hour.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113882985565030882005-04-18T20:56:00.000-07:002005-04-18T20:56:00.000-07:00To previous anonymous poster who mentions parting ...To previous anonymous poster who mentions parting with love. Your post has touched me deeply. It shines like a beacon of Light. Thank you<BR/>FreebirdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113882066393677992005-04-18T20:41:00.000-07:002005-04-18T20:41:00.000-07:00To "Freebird - I do exit counselling for cult memb...To "Freebird - I do exit counselling for cult members":<BR/><BR/>Your anonymous posts are skewing the opinion polls of this blog. Cult counselling is itself a cult for profit.<BR/><BR/>Anyone else posting under this mindset should identify their agenda and start using a real name instead of poisoning the dialogue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113850319347478632005-04-18T11:51:00.000-07:002005-04-18T11:51:00.000-07:00I think the challenge IS to agree to disagree BUT ...I think the challenge IS to agree to disagree BUT parting as friends is very important. Because that means that love is there, despite our spiritual differences.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113842299945027902005-04-18T09:38:00.000-07:002005-04-18T09:38:00.000-07:00To Jeremy Lyell, my response to youI am also a cou...To Jeremy Lyell, my response to you<BR/><BR/>I am also a counsellor and a healing practitioner specializing in the terminally ill, abuse victims, marriage and I do exit counselling for cult members.<BR/><BR/>To excuse abuse under the guise of a spiritual life and the guru can do anything trick is denial. It's like saying; she is a little bit pregnant. Abuse is abuse. Within the community to have participated and tolerated severe abuses is sado-masochism. Thank God many students have awoken to this truth. I question your skills as a fellow counsellor to see this.<BR/><BR/>In defense of my friend whom I have spoken up for, shame on you Jeremy. People post anonymously for different reasons. They may have had painful traumatic experiences with Andrew and/or students. They will reveal themselves should they have the desire to do so. Let us honor them instead, for we do not know what is going on in their minds and hearts, no judging please.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your compliment in my encouragement to all posters to be civil to one another should we agree or disagree with one another.<BR/><BR/>My nickname Freebird is a reality. I am free, totally free and, therefore, I recognize abuse of any kind no matter how subtle it appears. <BR/><BR/>Blessings to you Jeremy and best wishes.<BR/>FreebirdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113810898566089312005-04-18T00:54:00.000-07:002005-04-18T00:54:00.000-07:00Jeremy, I'm shocked at your post. You are an abuse...Jeremy,<BR/> I'm shocked at your post. You are an abuse counsellor. I find your lack of compassion apalling. You have no right to downgrade a person's suffering by comparing it to another's, thereby dismissing them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113809270285628852005-04-18T00:27:00.000-07:002005-04-18T00:27:00.000-07:00Dear Roberta, WOW!!! What an incredible read. Bra...Dear Roberta,<BR/> WOW!!! What an incredible read. Bravo! Amazing writing skills. Such aliveness! I'm a former poster who told you that your posts were lifeless Andrewspeak. This last post of yours was so vibrant that my whole body felt electrified. You're a wonderful person Roberta! Thank you for sharing your inner process here with all of us. Bless you!!! XXXXAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113808881618782432005-04-18T00:21:00.000-07:002005-04-18T00:21:00.000-07:00To the anonymous who responded to my recent posts....To the anonymous who responded to my recent posts.<BR/><BR/>A very predictable response, following a now recognisable pattern : start with a self-serving interpretation of what was written whilst putting down the original poster – in this case me – by asserting that you and your colleagues were in the community longer and “travelled in his inner circle”. <BR/><BR/>I would like to ask you directly what it is that you are trying to hide by not revealing your identity ? Whilst it is usual to use an effectively anonymous nickname on internet forums, this forum is mainly populated by former students of Andrew, some of whom know each other very well indeed.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you really were in the inner circle, but that rather suggests that you were an accomplice in these alleged abuses, in which case will you apologise to us all for the role you played (although an anonymous apology is no apology at all) ?<BR/><BR/>Or perhaps you weren’t and, bearing in mind how much we all knew about each other personally in that very intimate environment, perhaps you failed to make the grade in a very well-known and obvious way ?<BR/><BR/>Or maybe, like Hal (assuming that you are not always Hal), you left before me all those years ago, which imho makes your campaign so many years after your personal ‘event’ a rather unfortunate reflection of your inability to face your own anger ?<BR/><BR/>I get the impression that there is in fact a very small core group of anonymous posters from whom the most virulent posts are coming. These bloggers appear to be unable to come to terms with the anger they experienced after they left the community, in some cases over 10 years ago. Nothing wrong with anger in and of itself, but when it’s being expressed as a masquerade for serving the spiritual world at large….. I just don’t buy it.<BR/><BR/>And Freebird, whilst I very much appreciate your call to civility, I do not agree with the oft repeated comment “…severe abuses that is fully agreed upon”. I am not an expert on abuse; nevertheless I have a Masters in NLP and spent several years working part-time as a voluntary counsellor with often severely abused and suicidal individuals. The so-called abuses revealed on this blog of typically well-educated seekers who chose of their own free will to submit to a spiritual master because they wanted something for themselves, just pales into insignificance compared to the appalling suffering of the truly underprivileged individuals with whom I worked. I think many bloggers, living in some of the most privileged areas of this often miserable planet, have simply lost their perspective. I mean you no ill will, ‘bird, just responding with what I see to be true.<BR/><BR/>Has Andrew often appeared to behave outrageously ? In my view, yes. Has he made many mistakes during the ongoing evolution of the community ? Same answer, but how could mistakes not be made ? Again, I’m not trying to justify Andrew’s behaviour, merely trying to give a different and in my opinion more realistic perspective on this whole issue.<BR/><BR/>I will be travelling for much of the coming week, so will be unable to respond further for the time being.<BR/><BR/>Good luck to all !<BR/><BR/>Jeremy Lyell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113804185706259422005-04-17T23:03:00.000-07:002005-04-17T23:03:00.000-07:00Through a Mirror Darkly—continuing to try to see c...Through a Mirror Darkly—continuing to try to see clearly!<BR/><BR/><BR/>Dear Friends,<BR/><BR/>Trying to get clear about my time as a member of Andrew’s community has been and continues to be a challenging and extremely emotional process. In talking with an old friend from the community recently it occurred to me that it’s actually quite a bit like the grief process I went through when my mother died a number of years ago. I kept thinking it was “over” and that I had reached some kind of “resolution”, and then, lo and behold, yet another “wave” would hit me often when I least expected it. I want to say that I really appreciate this blog a lot, as it has provided a great forum for me and many of us to sift and resift through these incredibly intense years many of us shared together. Finally getting the courage to participage and throw in my two cents has been far more helpful than I’d expected. In beginning to shake up and examine and re-examine so much that I hadn’t seen clearly and probably still am not. I actually think that this, like the grief process, may well go on for a long time! Many experiences and incidents from this time with Andrew are continuing to burble up to the surface which I’d forgotten about or filed away “safely” because I really didn’t know what to make of them at the time.<BR/><BR/>For me the really hard part about all of this is to hold and acknowledge it ALL, in all of its craziness, ecstatic revelations, agonizing humiliation, intense joy, incredible fear, unbelievable ongoing pressure, etc. The mind continually insists on something very white or very black, and to try somehow to stay in that really uncomfortable middle place of discomfort and confusion where nothing is denied or left out and the whole actually wildly confusing thing is attempted to be seen all at once—well, I continue to find that this is really difficult!<BR/><BR/>I think that as Brook pointed out in her post, part of why it’s so challenging to see this all clearly is that undeniably so many of us had enormously powerful and ecstatic realizations of Self when we met Andrew that literally blew our minds. His charisma, confidence, brilliant grasp of the dharma, and willingness to be “on the edge” enchanted us all. Also, the fact that he was an “independent teacher” actually living and teaching from nothing but his OWN understanding instead of some “stodgy tradition” –the incredible aliveness and freshness of all of this really appealed to so many of us “dharma renegades”. Our teacher was a handsome New York Jew who wore Italian clothes and knew everything about jazz. He was hip! He had a great sense of humor, was an incredible mimic, had great timing, and everything he did and said seemed to delight us. He seemed to have an amazing gift for cutting through obscuration and making the dharma simple and accessible and clear. Everyone and everything seemed to “glow” when we were with him. The fact that everything really did seem terrifically new and “unknown” was incredibly exciting. We were explorers out there on the edge, investigating new and uncharted lands with our brave and beautiful teacher at the helm. We were definitely a special and chosen lot!<BR/><BR/>As things slowly began to change and become not only not very ecstatic, but actually quite scary, many of us including myself felt that finally we were really entering the “true spiritual life”. Although it became often painful and really uncomfortable more and more of the time, everything we’d read and studied from the traditions told us that this was The Way. Slowly and progressively things got harder and weirder. NOW we were definitely “doing it”! Throughout this time lots of new innovations came into play, many of which were in fact skillful and very useful for all of us. We had freqent “discussion groups” where we would go into and explicate subtle points of the teachings with each other, and all of us learned a great deal about how to actually listen to others, articulate our thoughts and ideas much more clearly, and try follow each other’s train of thought with some intelligence. I’ve already written a lot (some would say ad nauseum!) about how all of these years with Andrew really did have a powerfully transformative effect on me and on many of my friends. But now slowly, because I continue to stare into all of this and reflect and re-reflect from as many angles as I can find, I have to say that I am starting to fall off my high horse and to see that there was indeed a great deal that was just plain old weird, cruel, and abusive, and way over the top. It’s helped me to think about what “went wrong” in terms of looking at the fact that Andrew didn’t really have a real model of “how to teach”. He hadn’t really worked closely with a deeply realized teacher who was steeped in a time-tested tradition where many of the kinks had a chance to get ironed out through centuries of learning from lots of mistakes. He was actually making it all up as he went along, and while we first thought that this was great because he was only teaching purely from his own understanding (which was undeniably profound)--and this was indeed probably why the teachings had a truly "alive" quality, his main and really only strategy became to simply continue to “up the ante”, no matter what. The force and domination and control indeed became quite nazi like. No situation was tailored for individual students at particular times (although I still believe that “intensity” at the proper time and with a great deal of sensitivity and finesse can actually be helpful on occasion). Every month and every year the intensity and “abuses” (already fully documented here on this blog) appeared to escalate to a degree that was beyond extreme. I never really participated myself in being aggressive with others (I was in fact considered rather weak and “wimpy” in that I was always pretty bad at giving “strong feedback” –this seemed to be a sign that I really didn’t care about the freedom of others!) Truly weird as it was, I think that Andrew thought and probably still thinks that this extreme force was necessary for the “liberation” of his students. I really don’t think he knows any other way to teach, and will probably justify his “methods” to the end. A big part of the underlying setup, as many have described, was that once you accepted Andrew as your teacher that was it. He knew best (as he often said, “why would you come to a teacher if you already know better?”) and because of his rather incredible confidence, managed to set himself up as the unquestioned Authority on Everything! Because of this I think there must be some kind of underlying fear that the whole thing would fall apart if Andrew ever admitted to having made a mistake. This in itself is symptomatic perhaps of how and why it all got so crazy.<BR/><BR/>So I am finding it really helpful to just keep looking at all of this, trying to keep seeing the holes and blockages in my own understanding, my areas of denial, where I may be still protecting anything for whatever reasons, etc. As I’ve said before I am not bitter about all of the quite long time I spent in this situation, crazy as a lot of it was. For whatever reasons, mostly because I really wanted so much to believe in Andrew’s “vision”, I chose to stay and tough it out through a great deal of wild and crazy and quite painful stuff. I definitely learned a lot and changed deeply in ways I needed to. It was an unbelievably wild ride, and I must say that I both don’t regret it and I am also really glad I’m no longer in that situation! I know that there is still probably a great deal more for me to see about all of this, really appreciate the posts from everyone, and want to thank Hal for providing this much-needed forum.<BR/><BR/>With love and thanks to all,<BR/>Roberta<BR/><BR/>P.S. Something I’m finding kind of interesting to think about is that early on with Andrew he had all us us ex-Da Free John students (there were six or seven of us) get together to get “de-programmed” and see and face clearly what a mad teacher he actually was. We all sat together for a number of hours going over and over our experiences. I remember actually feeling a bit “seasick” from just being forced to see and tell the truth. It’s just rather ironic and weird that now I am going through this again with Andrew! Wow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113792404720649142005-04-17T19:46:00.000-07:002005-04-17T19:46:00.000-07:00Thank you Freefird. I'm the poster who Jeff thinks...Thank you Freefird. I'm the poster who Jeff thinks is '...negative and cynical with no hope for change in the human race.' Jeff, I was an active member of the community for 3 years. I know you well. You're a sweet man. Because I don't support Andrew anymore doesn't mean I'm negative. On the contrary I consider it positive because it's more sane. It doesn't support mis-thinking, cruelty and abuse. I have great hope for the human race, but not through Andrew.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113779140511395392005-04-17T16:05:00.000-07:002005-04-17T16:05:00.000-07:00To Jeff Feldman and Cohen fans:Jeff did you read a...To Jeff Feldman and Cohen fans:<BR/><BR/>Jeff did you read anonymous's poster's reply to my support and agreement of his previous post? His new post ends with : But we can agree and disagree and be friends. <BR/><BR/>The supporters of Andrew appear to have no interest in our say and desire to put us down. I must stress again that this blog is about the experiences of former students with the revelations of severe abuses that is fully agreed upon by all. We offer help and support to them.<BR/><BR/>It is great that you Cohen fans are so loyal to him and may you all continue to do so, but we who disagree with your opinions have rights as well and we express our views as we understand and see them as truth.<BR/><BR/>I am a loyal supporter of this blog and am aware that since the Cohen fan influx upon us, many of you respond to us with hostility. Words of agression and condescending, power and control games were not part of this blog and introduced by you. There was dignity, honor and respect among all of us posters, if we agreed or disagreed. Now there are attacks one after another from the Cohen supporters. Let us stop being so unkind to one another.<BR/><BR/>All you loyal followers of Andrew why, tell me why, did you ever leave him and the community. Would you all have stayed, you all would have the feedback you so long for.<BR/><BR/>In ending, let us be civil to one another as human beings and give respect back to this blog.<BR/><BR/>Love to all and especially the long term posters.<BR/>FreebirdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113770381244027832005-04-17T13:39:00.000-07:002005-04-17T13:39:00.000-07:00To the above poster, thank you.I think that the tw...To the above poster, thank you.<BR/>I think that the two positions represented on this blog are irreconcilable. Each is inconceivable to the other. But we can agree to disagree, and be friends.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113767186674001592005-04-17T12:46:00.000-07:002005-04-17T12:46:00.000-07:00To anonymous poster who ends with: But the ego's s...To anonymous poster who ends with: But the ego's still there in both Andrew and the student. I support your insight and wisdom re ego. You used such clarity and were able to express in few words. Thank youAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113759869745748702005-04-17T10:44:00.000-07:002005-04-17T10:44:00.000-07:00I've noticed that when Andrew adherents post here ...I've noticed that when Andrew adherents post here (Jeff Feldman and Roberta) their posts are lengthy and are very similar. They all sound like Andrew. Their words are lifeless. They repeat the same rhetoric word for word. I think that's the problem. They believe Andrew's concepts of 'ego' and 'breaking the backbone of the ego' and all the rest of Andrew's contrived philosophy. I've come to realize this is nonsense. The ego's backbone doesn't get broken. It's cultspeak. Standing outside it's just one ego beating on another ego. What we wind up with is a situation of dominance. The beaten ego agrees to bend a knee and look different. But the ego's still there; in both Andrew and the student.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113749874678371302005-04-17T07:57:00.000-07:002005-04-17T07:57:00.000-07:00I would like to submit a recent exchange with Jeff...I would like to submit a recent exchange with Jeff on the previous post "Emporor's New Clothes" as I think it is relevant to the topic here.<BR/><BR/>At Friday, 15 April, 2005, Jeff Feldman said... <BR/>Your questions are good ones, and I don't mean that in a patronizing way. I was particularly struck by your sentence....'I cannot reconcile the two extremes described in this blog and would sincerely appreciate hearing from a point of view which can and does acknowledge both sides of the issue.' Since reading this and your original letter, I have put a lot of thought into the matter. Your questions run deep. They call into question, what is authentic spirituality, what is the ego, how do we take on the ego in a way that is really going to mean something and result in significant change, and, as a student of Andrew's, it goes to the heart of the relationship - do I trust him, if I do (as I do), should I question and doubt that trust, should I question and doubt him? These are very deep questions, that need to be looked at with intelligence, seriousness, and sensitivity. The stakes are high, because of what he is teaching, because of what I think are the implications of his teachings, because of my own realization and what I have proclaimed to know and to be missing, in my own life, in relationship to that realization - I went into this in my first posting. I appreciate your openness, in terms of wanting to reconcile two apparent extremes - it seems that you are aware of something profound about Andrew, and then there is the other...Of course, I can't reconcile this for you; I can only share my process...<BR/><BR/>Since reading your responses, I have allowed myself to wonder if Andrew was wrong in what he did, or had done. One of the things that I have recognized, since meeting Andrew is just how strong the ego is - oh, how we want to assert our sense of individual, separate (superior to everyone and everything else) self - it is relentless - even in those times when it seems like I am being open, generous, sensitive, responsive to others, etc. there it is - instantly claiming everything for itself. A couple of years ago, during a teaching, Andrew talked about the destruction of this powerful force, known as ego having to be metaphorically akin to smashing our backbone. It rang true. I sensed how intensely I hold onto the sense of separate self - just how strong that really is - to let go of that would really change the whole conditioned pattern of the human race - who really wants to do that? I like to think I do, but in reality, it's too much. And, when I have glimpses of it, of what it would be like, even though I sense the liberating quality, I find myself immediately wanting to rest - "ah, that's it - I've done it", right back into ego. Because of Andrew's claim that it is possible to Enlightened right here, right now, in this very birth, and his interest in having that happen - not just for one, but for the whole - everything that is in the way of that (ego) is revealed in all of its massive ugliness. Thank God! If it wasn't, there is a whole (and important to know about) side of the human condition that would remain hidden (which is what it, the ego, wants). Where would the freedom be, in that? Where would the possibility of being truly free be? So, a major part of Andrew's teaching is to realize the tenacious, disgusting nature of the ego - how big it really is, and how much it gets in the way of the True Love, Authenticity, and Freedom that can not be grasped, held onto, or located anywhere in time or space, yet can be expressed through we, mortal human beings.<BR/><BR/>So, with all of that in the picture, what is Andrew to do? I admit that in ordinary circumstances slapping people, pouring paint, and so on, is not appropriate, and I am not sure that I want to be close enough to the fire to risk having that happen to me. In the situations that have been described, through this blog, it is my understanding that everyone of the people involved had been very close to Andrew, that they had proclaimed their desire to be Free, more than anything else, right here, right now, in this very birth and that they had said they were willing to do whatever it took. On top of that, they had been close to Andrew for extended periods of time - they had been recognized by Andrew and by the rest of us as having been consisitent and steady over long periods of time in their ability to 'live the Teachings', and a few of them had even been put into positions of being representatives (in teaching positions) of Andrew's. The stakes were high. Because of all this, because of the 'agreement' that they had with Andrew, there is a context in which all of that took place, and they were conscious, willing participants, every step of the way. Similar stories have been told, throughout the ages (I used to practice za-zen and was (willingly) whacked over the back with a stick to 'wake me up'), and there are accounts of people being treated in what would seem like abusive ways and waking up to whole new dimensions of consciousness. <BR/><BR/>The long and the short of it, for me, is that I do trust Andrew - for all the reasons I have written in my rather lengthy postings, and he has still never given me any reason to doubt that he knows what he is talking about and what he is doing. As I wrote, before, I keep measuring and weighing his teachings against my own experience, which includes the deepest realization and my day to day experience through interactions with other people, and consistently, I am able to affirm that he knows what he is talking about and that what he is doing is valid, in the context of True Enlightenment. <BR/><BR/>I hope this helps and wish you all the best!<BR/><BR/> <BR/>At Saturday, 16 April, 2005, One said... <BR/>Thank you Jeff. I have been waiting for your response and truly appreciate you taking the time to reflect and share your experience. I have also read and responded to Roberta's postings on this blog.<BR/>If I am hearing you correctly, you are saying that in the context that the incidents described in this blog happened, being with a group of students very close to Andrew, and conscious willing participants all the way, that this condones these actions. If one accepts the premise that enduring all this in the name of breaking the back of the ego for the sake of changing humanity, then that is the end of the matter. <BR/>This premise does not ring true to me. In fact, I do not want to live on premises, which are mind created structures. In my view, these are dangerous premises. They give you "time" and "process". They block you from waking up Now. And they keep you completely dependant on Andrew.<BR/>He has complete Authority over you.<BR/>This seems to me to be a fundamentally flawed set of circumstances. I know this situation can inspire incredible passion and deep love for Andrew as God. Thrilling prospects regarding changing humanity...who wouldn't be moved by that possibility? But if it takes such a tremendous amount of ego crucification for so many years for the students who are closest to Andrew, how is it going to change humanity? How are the billions of expressions of the One manifesting as humanity on this planet going to go through this ego death? Even you admit you are reluctant to get too close to the fire.<BR/>I do not see humanity changing from this kind of outward crushing of the false sense of self. I see humanity waking up to Presence which is arising from Within. I do not see human beings doing it. I see Presence doing it. When the mind stops, Presence Is Realized. No amount of face-slapping or paint-dousing is going to change humanity. Anyone who has raised children knows that is not the way to create healthy self-aware human beings. You cannot push the river.<BR/>Blessings to you on your journey Jeff and thanks again for responding with your heartfelt respect and love for Andrew. May that love and respect be returned to you in full measure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113748297476955122005-04-17T07:31:00.000-07:002005-04-17T07:31:00.000-07:00Jeremy, I’m confused. In your comment immediately ...Jeremy, I’m confused. In your comment immediately above you speak about sometimes people will try to prevent a friend from leaving a group against their will … “I think this is for a number of reasons, different in each case, ranging from a genuine, heartfelt wish to keep one’s friends on board, all the way to not wanting to admit that maybe to leave is the sensible thing to do – that would mean having to admit there might be something less than savoury about the actions of one’s beloved teacher, for whom one has expressed never ending love and devotion, or about one’s own true commitment – very difficult indeed. ..those who stay often do vilify their recently departed former brothers and sisters to help bolster their own commitment to stay.” <BR/><BR/>However, in your post earlier (below Brook’s letter) you say that “victimhood can be a tragically attractive place in which to dwell” implying that those who leave and express criticism of the practices they experienced in the group are not taking responsibility. You call anonymous posters “cowardly.” You characterize the discussion on this blog as a “feeding frenzy.” You label critics of Andrew’s as “stuck in the past.” <BR/><BR/>Further you say ‘Dave has really hit the spot where he writes “Tell your readers how you could not bear to realise that you don’t want to be free more than anything else…… and that you are quite angry about that revelation and the loss of your spiritual identity”’.<BR/><BR/>So which is it Jeremy, do we who have spent many many more years than you under the control of Andrew Cohen, and lived and traveled in his inner circle, and since left have a legitimate basis for our criticisms, or are we only being the victim? Are those who leave always unwilling to bear the awful truth that they don’t want to be free more than anythying else, or is there really villification of people who leave the group (cult in your words)?<BR/><BR/>And Jeremy, one could as easily say that posting with one’s name is grandstanding as one could say that posting anonymously is cowardly. But seeing the truth is the more important issue here, and so far no poster on any side of the issue has disputed the basic facts as brought out by many (mostly named) witnesses. To me “living in the past” meant blind, unquestioning loyalty to an authority figure (Andrew) and the reason this discussion is so refreshing is that it has left the prison of the past to allow us to discuss these issues NOW. What could be better?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113731498609537102005-04-17T02:51:00.000-07:002005-04-17T02:51:00.000-07:00I’d like to add to the last anon poster’s comments...I’d like to add to the last anon poster’s comments on leaving a spiritual community. <BR/><BR/>There can be such enormous value in joining a spiritual community – living, seeking & questioning together with supportive, like-minded people under the guidance of one’s chosen teacher, protected from and relatively undistracted by the world at large. In the inevitable times of doubt, darkness and bewilderment, there is fantastic, loving support to stay true to one’s deepest yearning for liberation. Many of us on this blog experienced this support within Andrew’s community.<BR/><BR/>But there is indeed a razor’s edge between positive, constructive support and falling off that edge into trying to prevent people from leaving against their will – one of the great negative aspects of any cult (not that a cult in & of itself is necessarily negative). I have lived in two such communities, one of them being Andrew’s, and through close friends I have heard of the goings on in many others, across all kinds of ‘denominations’. I regret I have not heard of a single example where the positive balance has been totally maintained – a sad state of affairs indeed.<BR/><BR/>I think this is for a number of reasons, different in each case, ranging from a genuine, heartfelt wish to keep one’s friends on board, all the way to not wanting to admit that maybe to leave is the sensible thing to do – that would mean having to admit there might be something less than savoury about the actions of one’s beloved teacher, for whom one has expressed never ending love and devotion, or about one’s own true commitment – very difficult indeed. And those who stay often do vilify their recently departed former brothers and sisters to help bolster their own commitment to stay. This reflects the human need of wanting to be right and is not at all isolated to Andrew’s community. I hope they grow beyond this – there have a been a number of posts from recently-departed former community members saying how they were treated with love & respect when they left, by Andrew and fellow students alike. Perhaps this has something to do with the way in which they left, perhaps something to do with the way in which the community is evolving for the better.<BR/><BR/>Jeremy Lyell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8775078.post-1113712513522741322005-04-16T21:35:00.000-07:002005-04-16T21:35:00.000-07:00In answer to the above poster's question. Cult mem...In answer to the above poster's question. Cult members and their leaders never want other members to leave. They may take other friends with them. It's bad publicity for the cult when people who have left tell their 'story' to people on the outside. They want everyone to stay and continue the enslavement. When someone leaves there is dissonance in those who stay. They begin to ask themselves questions about the authenticity of the group and the group leader. When someone leaves others see it and it opens their eyes to the abuse/enslavement. They may have moments of lucidity and leave the cult too. And the process can continue, with one person after the other leaving. The leader loses his constituency. To prevent this the leader ridicules the person who wants to leave hoping that he can manipulate them into staying; thereby keeping his grip on them and the rest of the group who are watching. It's a sad state of affair.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com